Robert Sungenis, Ph.D. and Bro. Guy Consolmagno, Ph.D. Discuss Geocentrism on the BBC

Robert Sungenis, Ph.D. author of numerous books including Galileo Was Wrong and Bro. Guy Consolmagno, Ph.D. of the Vatican Observatory participated in a BBC discussion on intelligent design. It appeared that the BBC wanted to use geocentrism to discredit Robert Sungenis, Ph.D. The show was taped on the Today Show, BBC radio channel 4, Tuesday 8/29/2006.
[Note 9/1: At this point it is not clear that it aired or was pre-taped. Still the interview did take place. I changed 'aired live' to 'was taped']. Unfortunately it appears the audio was not included on the website, yet. Did the interview not go the way the BBC had hoped?

In summary, the BBC commentator tried to get Bro. Guy Consolmagno to speak against the idea of geocentrism, but he would not. He basically stated that he preferred to work in the heliocentric system because the math is easier.

Here is a couple of portions of the interview from Robert Sungenis' memory (what follows is from Robert Sungenis):

Interviewer: "So, Dr. Sungenis, you believe that the sun goes around the earth, is that correct?"

Sungenis: "Yes, and so do a lot of other people."

Interviewer: "Like who?"

Sungenis: "Well, they won't come right out and admit it, but they do hold that geocentrism is just as valid a model of cosmology as heliocentrism."

Interviewer: "And who are these people?"

Sungenis: "Oh, people like Albert Einstein, Ernst Mach, Julian Barbour...."

At this point, the interviewer interupted and turned to Guy Consolomagno.

Interviewer: "Bro Consolmagno, do you believe that the sun revolves around the earth?"

Consolmagno: "Well, let's put it this way. It's easier to make calculations with the earth going around the sun."

At this point I could tell the intereviewer sensed that the whole thing was exploding in his face. So he tried to pin Consolmagno down to denying geocentrism.

Interviewer: "But Bro Consolmagno, we are talking here about reality. Regardless of whether the math works easier, is it true or not that the sun goes around the earth?"

Consolmagno: "Well, like I said, it's easier to work with the earth going around the sun."

There were more things said, but I can't remember them now, but the above is an accurate rendition of how the conversation went. In brief, Consolmagno would not admit to the interviewer that the sun did not go around the earth.

La Salette: Geocentric Chapel?

In the midst of the covering and veil, where the priests were allowed to enter, was situated the altar of incense, the symbol of the earth placed in the middle of this universe; and from it came the fumes of incense.
(St. Basil, The Mystic Meaning of the Tabernacle, Bk V, Ch VI; Clement of Rome, Stromata, Bk V)

Recently, I attended mass in the chapel at La Salette. While in the chapel, I noted that the the chapel was physically arranged in a way that could be described as representing a geocentric universe. I have no idea if this was intentional or not, but either way it can rightfully be described that way. The basic layout is as follows:

1. The chapel is semi-circular (i.e., representing half the universe);
2. There is a central half-cylinder (containing the Tabernacle)
3. The sanctuary and altar sit on a semi-circular platform
4. Multi-bulb lamps are arranged circumfrentially and radially outward from the tabernacle/altar/sanctuary.

It is a little difficult to see, but the following is a photograph of the chapel:

The lay-out is represented in a view from above, here:



















The resemblance between this chapel and a geocentric universe goes beyond just the purposeful circumferential/radial arrangement of light clusters (representing galaxies). Think of the circumferential arrangement as the quantization effect (of galaxy or other redshifts) observed by astronmers today.

...D. Koo and R. Krone, two University of Chicago scientists, did
the same kind of redshift analysis on galaxies. Their results were
identical to Napier’s and Guthrie’s and even made it to the New York Times.
They conclude: “…the clusters of galaxies, each containing
hundreds of millions of stars, seemed to be concentrated in evenly
spaced layers” [i.e., concentric spheres around the Earth]...
Galileo Was Wrong, pg. 180

Think of the radial arrangement as representing the fact that all galaxies appear to be receding from us (the earth) wherever we look.

“…as we see only redshifts whichever direction we look in the sky,
the only way in which this could be consistent with a gravitational
explanation is if the Earth is situated at the center of an inhomogeneous Universe.”
P. C. W. Davies, “Cosmic Heresy?” Nature, 273:336, 1978. As quoted in Galileo Was Wrong.

Think of the presence of this structure as the alignment of the universe with the earth- as has been observed in the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CBR):

The large-angle correlations of the cosmic microwave
background exhibit several statistically significant anomalies
compared to the standard inflationary cosmology…The correlation
of the normals with the ecliptic poles …Physical
correlation of the CMB with the equinoxes is difficult to
imagine, since the WMAP satellite has no knowledge of the
inclination of the Earth’s spin axis.
Dominik J. Schwarz, Glenn D. Starkman, Dragan Huterer and Craig J. Copi, “Is the Low-l Microwave Background Cosmic?” Physical Review Letters, November 26, 2004, pp. 221301-1 to 4. Excerpted from Galileo Was Wrong.

Galileo Was Wrong contains much more evidence that modern science does "see" us at the center of the universe. They simply choose to ignore this evidence (and as proven in the book, they admit this). Thus, faith- represented by this chapel, is necassary to open ones mind to this possibility.

La Salette Secrets II

After writing this original article, La Salette Secrets, I ordered the book Découverte du secret de La Salette, by René Laurentin and Michel Corteville (published by Fayard, France). I was wondering if they gave credence to the controversial secrets of Melanie Calvat (the ones she published in 1879 with imprimatur of Bishop Zola of Leece, Italy; though recall that the bishop was later reprimanded for premitting publication). It was in this version of the secret (which now thanks to the book I have learned is the 8th version) that the infamous line "Rome will become the seat of the Antichrist" was written. This is one of the lines that earned the secret and all books, brochures, etc., that contained it a place on the Index. (Of course the one way to view this statement is that Rome is not the same as the Vatican, at least not anymore).

Never the less, I was interested in what the authors take was on this secret. I still do not know completely, because I do not know French. Undaunted I undertook the task of attempting translation of some of the relevant material to try and understand where the authors stand on this. The book, by the way does have imprimatur (Nihil obstat, Abbaye Notre-Dame de Tournay, 13 férvier 2002, Dom Bernard Billet; Imprimatur, Évry, le jour Pâques 2002, + Mgr Michel Dubost).

The translations were accomplished starting with a machine translation, then using an online French dictionary and other resources to try and complete the translation. I apologize in advance for any errors.

René Laurentin writes a foreward, explaining how Michel Corteville discovered the original secrets sent by the seers (Melanie and Maximin) to pope Pius IX. He also lays the groundwork for the book in this foreward. Here are some out-takes:

Revealing the secrets of Salette: is this an event, and which event?

(Dévoilement du secret de La Salette : est-ce un événement, et quel événement?)

After the third part of the secret of Fatima, revealed by the pope John-Paul II, on May 13, 2000, here the secrets of La Salette are revealed in its turn, together with other neglected documents.

The very first version [of the secret] of the two shepherds, addressed to the pope Pius IX, seemed lost, according to the response of the Congregation of the Faith to the father Jean Stem, then archivist of the Missionaries of Salette, who had not spared his efforts to find this official version, collected in 1851 by Msgr. Bruililad and handed-over to pope Pius IX by two canons of his See.

Since then, in 1998, Mgr Bertone, secretary of this congregation, opened to the researchers the former files of deceased pope Leo XIII (November 20, 1903). Thus the abbot Michel Corteville, who made his thesis in Rome, is the first to search this file, and found the lost secrets.

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This is an interesting point. Leo XIII had a prophetic dream of portraying the ravaging of the Church by the forces of evil and, when one considers what the Church had to endure in the 20th century, one can see the Pope’s dream was frighteningly prophetic. One wonders if his interest in La Salette is related to this dream?

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To discover it, it was necessary to be prepared there. If it is to be discussed, Michel Corteville has been familiar with this apparition as of his childhood. His father, Fernand CorteviIle, had been interested since the foundation, in 1958, of a group of researchers in the wake of Jacques Maritain, whose monumental work on La Salette has yet to be published. The abbot Corteville had been informed thus of La Salette quite sufficiently. After having passed his Spanish degree, then of theology in Rome, he being impassioned for La Salette, devoted his degree dissertation to it, then his doctoral thesis. After four years of ministry in Africa and nine in Mexico, he successfully supports this thesis with the faculty of Angelicum, in Rome. It counts more than thousand pages. The first volume begins at Téqui under the title the Great News of the Shepherds of La Salette. The first volume has just appeared in May 2001, the second, devoted to the life of Melanie and in the Rule which was revealed to him, will be published later on. It highlights the interest of this ignored text, which inspired since several religious foundations.

This thesis is a treasure house of documents, the non-specialist can be overwhelmed, thus this shorter book is to answer the questions raised passionately since then. I had advised Michel considering the length of his work, that I have fears that his discovery of October 1999, be not stolen from him by some media company. As soon as possible, I published a special article in Christians Magazine to publicly ensure the paternity of his discovery to him: too many researchers are surreptitiously stripped by others of their original discoveries, because the primacy of their publication is taken.

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The interview from Christians Magazine is in the book. I have not had a chance to review it (my lack of French certainly being an impediment).

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The fragmentary knowledge of the documents left room to multiple interrogations . The many texts discovered renew the question, to such an extent debated. The critical tendency clarified the unsophisticated aspect of the limits and weaknesses of the seers (especially Maximin). But a broad spectrum of Christian authors of reputation - Leon Bloy, Maritain, Claudel, Massignon and others - distinguished and admired the sincerity or even the holiness of the two shepherds, (especially Melanie). The debate was opened by the same hierarchy. Since, unlike Msgr of Bruillard who recognized the appearance, and held in regard the two seers, his successor Mgr Ginoulhiac, who was to continue La Salette, sacri: (?) trusted the seers however, "The mission of the shepherds is finished. that of the Church starts", he declared on September 19, 1855 as carved in stone.

This critical program thus was essential to Péres of La Salette as to the clergy of the diocese, and for this reason they deepened the negative side of the life of the seers. The matter did not miss a step to the hour when psychology unilaterally revolutionized spirituality . Those who were trusted to dicern the profound value of the two shepherds gave the appearance of outsiders then: as Maritain does not dare it to plead the cause of Melanie in front of Dom Delatte, abbot of Solesmes, as by describing himself as "layman being unaware, makes indignant Christian, poor philosopher" (letter of March 2, 1912, below p. 219).

According to the dominant assumption, the seers were under "since 1847" the illuminated and scheming dominion of the royalists. The documents put into perspective today the contrary political influences. Maximin dissuaded the count de Chambord ("Henry V") to aspire to the royalty, and Melanie accepted the principle of the Rallying of the Catholics to the republic preached by pope Leo XIII. These examples let us foresee at which point the stereotypes and hasty generalizations are to be re-examined.

But the core of the problem, the object of the conclusion, is the holiness of the poor about which the Gospel speaks. It is often disconcerting and is ignored, in spite of recent grateful efforts to bring acknowledgement, beside canonizations of popes, bishops, doctors, founders, kings or national heroes, those of the holy beggar Benoit Labre and other individuals: humble mothers, laymen of the home and children, according to the wish of Daniel Ange.

This volume thus will try to answer in short the burning questions , and discuss on every level, according to the following plan:

1. Initially, the essential account of the appearance;

2. One will see the father Michel Corteville telling his discovery and his principal conclusions in answer to the questions of the abbot Laurentin (interview in Christians Magazine of March 15, 2002 where premiered).
3. One will examine then the problems raised by the fundamental message of Fatima: the apparent dedication which served it.

4. One will read then the complete text of the "secrets" in the six successive forms which were preserved. We will add to it what the principal interlocutors of the seers say.

5. How to think of this apparition - "recognized" - which caused so much enthusiasm, Joris Karl Huysmans, Leon Bloy, Claudel, Maritain, Massignon, but also criticism? What did the popes say of them?

6. What to think of the seers, constantly subjected to terrible contradictory attacks: indiscreet enthusiasms, contradictions and slanderings? Are they stupid, or intelligent? Balanced or not? Unstable or stable? Confused or coherent? Poor or holy?

7. What to think of the secrets and a dozen predictions so variously judged? Their versions hold them to a confusion of spirit or the diversity of the circumstances in which they expressed it unused to remember, more of rich images than of words? The long version, proper to Melanie, is it a late and subjective extrapolation through the years 1860 - 1879: "La Salette II", after "La Salette I"? Would this be a heterogeneous extrapolation? Is this is on the contrary a testimony of her fidelity with the gradual disclosure according to instructions' of Our Lady, as it is divulged at Fatima and elsewhere?

8. Lastly, it is essential to present the Rule of La Salette, the charter received from the Virgin by Melanie, on September 19, 1846, but only written in 1853 in short form, and completely in 1876. It is, to some extent, a complement of the secret in its practical and eschatologic dimensions: its positive, constructive, evangelic face.

One finds there (topics and terms) the prophecy of Grignion de Montfort on the apostles of last times (this expression being explicit only in the text of 1876). Melanie, was not able to found the order which she wished according to this revealed rule, as it seemed a utopia without interest nor fruits. But pope Leo XIII took it into account in 1878, and since then it inspired, with various degrees, several congregations: those of the happy Jacques Cusmano and Annibale di Francia. More recently, the Brothers of Saint Jean took their first steps in his spirit. A Mexican community was founded, in Merida, according to this rule, clear and contemplative, apostolic and eschatologic, in short evangelic. The Hurtubise father, Canadian, had undertaken, in the same direction, a foundation where the vocations flowed. but his moving death, while preaching in front of 2000 people, stopped his incipient project, in 1990. It currently arouses an interest in Haiti, in Canada, even in France.

The friends of La Salette and the specialists in the apparitions or the history of the Church will be grateful with abbot Cortevitle to have renewed by his discoveries the history and the problems of La Salette. It is not a question of eluding them of the specific aspects, even specifically neither the influences undergone by the seers nor the undulations in the transmission of a message whose wealth of words and images exceeded them. These illiterate of good country stock had received much in only one appearance, in less than one hour. They wrote it, accurately, without consulting the former versions, throughout thirty years, in very diverse conditions, for various recipients and applicants, while drawing from their memory, according to the letter and more still according to the spirit. Their successive versions are more or less explicit according to time and circumstances. One will have to wonder whether the alternatives take over their interpretation or extrapolations, but the substance is more constant than one might think from the reading of the former accounts. (1)

The realization of prophecies (always symbolic systems and general-purpose for biblical prophecies, insists the cardinal Ratzinger ) is more precise with La Salette than in the third part of the secret of Fatima, of which the second part was more important and more adequate. The work of Michel Corteville confirms the value, the coherence and even the topicality of the message of La Salette, and the too ignored value of the seers, quickly sacrificed on the altar of political criticism, besides rational or rationalist.

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Interesting take on the third secret of Fatima! Or maybe the interpretation of the third secret is not literal because it is incorrect?

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(footnote 1) One can rebuke Melanie's confusions or mistakes in the dates or predictions, but the biblical prophecy of Jonas was not carried out, and the third secret of Fatima does not include less literal inaccuracies. Maximin, less mature than Melanie, and whose vision was less precise, was sometimes victim of his fertile imagination, even of foreign influences. He clarified his youthful confusions with time, pointing to the importance of his account of 1866 (below p. 14).

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In the Conclusions of the chapter entitled Les Secrets (the secrets) Lies a partial answer to my question of how the secret of 1879 is treated by the authors. Unquestionably, based on the introduction, the authors are apologizing for the validity of the 1879 secret. Here are two sections entitled Antichrist? and End of Time?.

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a. Antichrist?

Thus the secrets of 1851, and all other versions speak about the Antichrist. Maximin indicates this mysterious biblical figure by the apocalyptic image of the monster, while Melanie asks for the spellng of this name, of which she is ignorant. He will be born of a religous (religieuse) , she writes. His father will be a bishop she specifies in 1860 (version 7). Following the example of Christ, it will have even her prophets forerunners (?), adds she, in the line from Jn 2, 18-22; 4,3. The edition of 1879 mentions one of them: With its troops of many nations, it will spread much blood, protesting against Christ, and any idea of religion, to take the place (versions 7-8) of it.

The prophecy has several levels, individual and collective, concrete or ideoological, deserving more attention than it seems [not] (mérite plus d'attention qu'il ne paraît). Baudelaire also spoke as a prophet while declaring: The greatest trick of the demon, it is to make one believe that he does not exist. In Demon (Fayard, 1995), we specified how, its persecuting action and homicide, which culminated in the Nazi exterminators and communists, succeeded an underground process for the spiritual uprooting of man, and suffocating faith. Pure and hard anticlericalism of the 19th and 20th centuries has been imposed discretely, has at all levels of society, an agnostic secularity. The strategy and the tactics of reducing Chritian faith were carried out with the hand of the master. The anti-religous offensive develops with guidance, a majority of the controllers claiming to be Christian and with very good pretence. Their policy is no more heroic than Louis XVI, but rather the doubtful religiosity of Napolean III. In this reassuring leader, Melanie has a premonition of the Antichrist.

The secrets describe, in terms and images different but convergent, misfortunes related to the arrival of the aforesaid character [i.e., the Antichrist]. As in the first epistle of saint John, it is at the same time individual and collective, because it is evoked in varied forms. One will speak about resurrected (versions 7-8), but they will be bad spirits, young hell-hounds, who will triumph by weapons and the wonders. Melanie foresees the worship of spirits : the worships of Satan abound under rock [rock and roll ?] since middle of the 19th century (the Demon, p. 174-213, details what is known of this worship and of the explicitly satanic music, or in formal but occult worships: Sabbaths, black masses and ritual murder, which developed since 1950).

b. End of Time?

The secret of La Salette does not situate the Antichrist's persecutions immediately before the end of the world. The monster will disturb the peace, Maximin writes to Pius IX (version 1): He will be choked by the breath of St. Michael writes Melanie (version 8).
About 1900, the visionary entrusted to abbot Combe the basic principles of her second secret of the end of time, (above 70). She presents the broad outline of them to Miss Vernet:

There will only be true peace on earth after the death of the Antichrist. Two or three periods of peace before the Antichrist will be of short duration, a peace after a war, and although I wish this war does not arrive, it will be terrible, terrible, then the short peace ; during all this time, I did not see a king on the throne of France. That does not mean anything, if France returned to God, God could raise her and give her a very Christian king; Ninive was condemned to perish and because it made penitence, it was forgiven. After the Antichrist, who will fall body and soul into hell, the ground opening in the presence of the thousands of spectators coming from all the parts of the world to be witness to his exaltation (as he had announced) and entrance to heaven; all will convert, glorifying the single God of heaven and earth, the Gospel of Jesus-Christ will be preached in all his purity on all the earth. The Churches will be re-established (réouvertes), the kings will be the right hand of the Holy See, there will be one Sheperd and only one herd, charity will reign in all peoples hearts. The world will still last centuries, then charity will grow cold, more and more also the earth will refuse to give its fruits

CONCLUSION

It is always difficult to draw a conclusion on the value and the authenticity of the predictions. Even those of the Scriptures are the cross of the exegesits. The great eschatologic prophecy of Christ himself in the synoptic Gospels aims at once the end of Jerusalem and also the end of the world, owing to the fact that these two events are answered typologically like respective terms of old and the new Testament, not without deep implications. For it is the plan of God for the salvation of the world which continues in the perpetual conflict between its light and its grace on the one hand, and frenzies of the world stimulated by temptations of the demon on the other hand. One will not be astonished to find same ambiguity with Maximin and especially with Melanie, from where her hesitation on the datings which she endeavours to distinguish and concretize to be clear, but without succeeding well there.

footnote 1. Letter of Melanie with Miss Vernet, July 20, 1894 (ENS). Much immediately places the Antichrist before the return of Christ (or parousy) while being based on these words of Paul: the Lord has will destroy it by the breath of stops himself and the glare of his arrival, (2 Thess. 2, 9). But is this text to be taken literally? The Scripture is as evasive as the secrets of La Salette on this mystery. In the wake of Dan 12, 1, Apoc 12, 7; 19, 20 and 20, 1-3, it attributes to the archangel Micheal or the one who gains the victory against the dragon and the false prophet, identifiable with the Antichrist. This is illustrated in a fresco of Signorelli in the cathedral of Orvieto, in Italy.

La Salette Secrets

La Salette Basillica

La Salette is considered an important Marian apparition to many Catholics, especially of more traditional outlook. The apparition consisted of a series of dialogues between Mary, a young French girl named Melanie, and a young French boy named Maximin. There were messages given to both, and two secrets, one given to Melanie, and one given to Maximin. According to this article in the Catholic Encyclopedia, The secrets of Maximin and Melanie were sent to Pope Pius IX in 1851, and:

Maximin's secret is not known, for it was never published.

Mélanie's was inserted in its entirety in brochure which she herself had printed in 1879 at Leece, Italy, with the approval of the bishop of that town. A lively controversy followed as to whether the secret published in 1879 was identical with that communicated to Pius IX in 1851, or in its second form it was not merely a work of the imagination.

The apparitions themselves were approved by the Bishop of Grenoble, Mgr. Philibert de Bruillard. The next Bishop of Grenoble, Mgr. Ginoulhiac, stated in 1851 that only the original apparitions of 1846 were approved by the Church according to this Wikipedia article. The Wikipedia article (as of this writing) also claims that the secrets were never published (as verified by the Catholic Encyclopedia article).

The interesting part is that recently, the secrets have been retrieved from the Vatican and published. This is according to a new book reviewed here, Fathers René Laurentin and Michel Corteville. Maximin's sectret is available by clicking on these links:

Melanies are available, here:

Note that the secrets are in French. Keep in mind that though (according to the book review), the book has imprimatur, the secrets themselves are still likely not approved. I personally believe they are worthy of study, but I would be careful about putting too much confidence into them until further approval is forthcoming. Note that Melanie's secrets were approved by the Bishop of Leece, Italy, but he was not the local ordinary where the apparitions occured. I am not exactly sure what status that leaves the secret (of Melanie). [Note 8/19/2006: The Bishop of Leece was reprimanded by the Vatican].

Acording to the website reviewing the book, the translation of the secrets is as follows:

[8/28/05: I have added the original French]

Maximin's Secret:

Statue of Maximin

On September 19, 1846, we saw a beautiful Lady. We never said that this lady was the Blessed Virgin but we always said that it was a beautiful Lady. I do not know if it is the Blessed Virgin or another person. As for me, I believe today that it is the Blessed Virgin.

(Le 19 septembre 1846, nous avons vu une belle Dame. Nous n'avons jamais dit que cette dame fut la Sainte Vierge mais nous avons toujours dit que c'était une belle Dame.
Je ne sais pas si c'est la Sainte Vierge ou une autre personne. Moi, je crois aujourd'hui que c'est la sainte Vierge.)

Here is what this Lady said to me:

(Voila ce que cette Dame m'a dit:)

"If my people continue, what I will say to you will arrive earlier, if it changes a little, it will be a little later.

(Si mon peuple continue, ce que je vais vous dire arrivera plus tôt , s'il change un peu, ce sera un peu plus tard.)

France has corrupted the universe, one day it will be punished. The faith will die out in France: three quarters of France will not practice religion anymore, or almost no more, the other part will practice it without really practicing it. Then, after [that], nations will convert, the faith will be rekindled everywhere. A great country, now Protestant, in the north of Europe, will be converted; by the support of this country all the other nations of the world will be converted.

(La France a corrompu l'univers, un jour elle sera punie. La foi s'éteindra dans la France: trois parties de la France ne pratiqueront plus de religion, ou presque plus, 1'autre la pratiquera sans bien la pratiquer. Puis, après [cela], les nations se convertiront, la foi se rallumera partout.

Une grande contrée dans le nord de l'Europe, aujourd 'hui protestante, se convertira: par l'appui de cette contrée toutes les autres contrées du monde se convertiront.)

Before all that arrives, great disorders will arrive, in the Church, and everywhere. Then, after [that], our Holy Father the Pope will be persecuted. His successor will be a pontiff that nobody expects.

(Avant que tout cela arrive, de grands troubles arriveront, dans l'Eglise, et partout. Puis, après [cela], notre Saint-Père le pape sera persecuté. Son successeur sera un pontife que personne [n'] attend)

Then, after [that], a great peace will come, but it will not last a long time. A monster will come to disturb it.

(Puis après [cela], une grande paix arrivera, mais elle ne durera pas longtemps. Un monstre viendra la troubler.)

All that I tell you here will arrive in the other century, at the latest in the year two thousand."

(Tout ce que je vous dis là arrivera dans l'autre siècle, [au] plus tard aux deux millle ans.")

Maximin Giraud
(She told me to say it some time before.)
My Most Holy Father, your holy blessing to one of your sheep.
Grenoble, July 3,1851.

(Maximin Giraud
(Elle [m'] a dit de le dire quelque temps avant).
Mon très Saint Père, votre sainte bénédiction à une de vos brebis,
Grenoble, le 3 juillet 1851.)

Here is the secret of Melanie (from the same source):

Statue of Melanie

JMJ

secret which the Blessed Virgin gave me on the Mountain of La Salette on September 19, 1846
Secr[e]t.

(secret que m'a donné la Sainte Vierge sur la Montagne de la Salette le 19 septembre 1846
Secr[e]t)

Mélanie, I will say something to you which you will not say to anybody:

(Mélanie, je vais vous dire quelque chose que vous ne direz à personne:)

The time of the God's wrath has arrived!

(Le temps de la colère de Dieu est arrivé!)

If, when you say to the people what I have said to you so far, and what I will still ask you to say, if, after that, they do not convert, (if they do not do penance, and they do not cease working on Sunday, and if they continue to blaspheme the Holy Name of God), in a word, if the face of the earth does not change, God will be avenged against the people ungrateful and slave of the demon.

(Si, lorsque vous aurez dit aux peuples ce que je vous ai dit tout à 1'heure, et ce que je vous dirai de dire encore, si, après cela, ils ne se convertissent pas, (si on ne fait pas pénitence, et si on ne cesse de travailler le dimanche, et si on continue de blasphémer le Saint Nom de Dieu), en un mot, si la face de la terre ne change pas, Dieu va se venger contre le peuple ingrat et esclave du démon.)

My Son will make his power manifest! Paris, this city soiled by all kinds of crimes, will perish infallibly. Marseilles will be destroyed in a little time. When these things arrive, the disorder will be complete on the earth, the world will be given up to its impious passions.

(Mon Fils va faire éclater sa puissance! Paris, cette ville souillée de toutes sortes de crimes, périra infailliblement. Marseille sera détruite en peu de temps. Lorsque ces choses arriveront, le désordre sera complet sur la terre. Le monde s'abandonnera à ses passions impies.)

The pope will be persecuted from all sides, they will shoot at him, they will want to put him to death, but no one will not be able to do it, the Vicar of God will triumph again this time.

(Le pape sera persecuté de toutes parts: on lui tirera dessus, on voudra le mettre à mort, mais on ne lui pourra rien, le Vicaire de Dieu triomphera encore cette fois[-là].)

The priests and the Sisters, and the true servants of my Son will be persecuted, and several will die for the faith of Jesus-Christ.

(Les prêtres et les religieuses, et les vrais serviteurs de mon Fils seront persécutés, et plusieurs mourront pour la foi de Jésus-Christ.)

A famine will reign at the same time.

(Une famine règnera en même temps.)

After all these will have arrived, many will recognize the hand of God on them, they will convert, and do penance for their sins.

(Après que toutes ces choses seront arrivées, beaucoup de personnes reconnaîtront la main de Dieu sur elles, se convertiront, et feront pénitence de leur péchés.)

A great king will go up on the throne, and will reign a few years. Religion will re-flourish and spread all over the world, and there will be a great abundance, the world, glad not to be lacking nothing, will fall again in its disorders, will give up God, and will be prone to its criminal passions.

(Un grand roi montera sur le trône, et règnera pendant quelques années. La religion refleurira et s'étendra par toute la terre et la fertilité sera grande, le monde content de ne manquer de rien recommencera ses désordres, abandonnera Dieu, et se livrera à ses passions criminelles.)

[Among] God's ministers, and the Spouses of Jesus-Christ, there will be some who will go astray, and that will be the most terrible.

([Parmi] les ministres de Dieu, et les Epouses de Jésus-Christ, il y en a qui se livreront au désordre, et c'est ce qu’il y aura de [plus] terrible.)

Lastly, hell will reign on earth. It will be then that the Antichrist will be born of a Sister, but woe to her! Many will believe in him, because he will claim to have come from heaven, woe to those who will believe in him!

(Enfin, un enfer règnera sur la terre. Ce sera alors que l’Antéchrist naîtra d'une religieuse: mais malheur à elle! Beaucoup de personnes croiront à lui, parce qu'il se dira venu du ciel, malheur à ceux qui le croiront!)

That time is not far away, twice 50 years will not go by.

(Le temps n'est pas éloigné, il ne se passera pas deux fois 50 ans.)

My child, you will not say what I have just said to you. (You will not say it to anybody, you will not say if you must say it one day, you will not say what that it concerns), finally you will say nothing anymore until I tell you to say it!

(Mon enfant, vous ne direz pas ce que je viens de vous dire. (Vous ne le direz à personne, vous ne direz pas si vous devez le dire un jour, vous ne direz pas ce que cela regarde), enfin vous ne direz plus rien jusqu’à ce que je vous dise de le dire!)

I pray to Our Holy Father the Pope to give me his holy blessing.

(Je prie Notre Saint Père le Pape de me donner sa sainte bénédiction.)

Mélanie Mathieu, Shepherdess of La Salette, Grenoble, July 6, 1851.
J.M.J.+

(Mélanie Mathieu, bergère de La Salette
Grenoble 6 juillet 1851
J.M.J.+)

[Note: (8/11/2006)- Here is a link comparing the Vatican archive version of Melanie's secret (shown on this blog) and a version of the disputed 1876+ release]

Finally, here is the approved message, given to both childen (source- Missionaries of Our Lady of La Salette):

Statue of Mary Talking to the Children

Come near, my children, be not afraid; I am here to tell you great news.

If my people will not submit, I shall be forced to let fall the arm of my Son. It is so strong, so heavy, that I can no longer withhold it.

For how long a time do I suffer for you! If I would not have my Son abandon you, I am compelled to pray to him without ceasing; and as to you, you take not heed of it.

However much you pray, however much you do, you will never recompense the pains I have taken for you.

Six days I have given you to labor, the seventh I had kept for myself; and they will not give it to me. It is this which makes the arm of my Son so heavy.

Those who drive the carts cannot swear without introducing the name of my Son. These are the two things which makes the arm of my Son so heavy.

If the harvest is spoilt, it is all on your account. I have you warning last year with the potatoes ('pommes de terre') but you did not heed it. On the contrary, when you found the potatoes spoilt, you swore, you took the name of my Son in vain. They will continue to decay, so that by Christmas there will be none left.

Ah, my children, do you not understand? Well, wait, I shall say it otherwise.

If you have wheat, it is no good to sow it; all you sow the insects will eat, and what comes up will fall into dust when you thresh it.

There will come a great famine.

Before the famine comes, the children under seven years of age will be seized with trembling and will die in the hands of those who hold them; the others will do penance by the famine.
The walnuts will become bad, and the grapes will rot. If they are converted, the stones and rocks will change into mounds of wheat, and the potatoes will be self-sown in the land.

Do you say your prayers well, my children?

Both answered with complete frankness. "Not very well, Madam."

Ah, my children, you must be sure to say them well morning and evening. When you cannot do better, say at least an Our Father and a Hail Mary. When you have time, say more.

There are none who go to Mass except a few aged women. The rest work on Sunday all summer; then in the winter, when they know not what to do, they go to Mass only to mock at religion.

During Lent, they go to the meat-market like dogs.

Have you never seen wheat that is spoilt, my children?

"No, Madam," they replied.

But you, my child [Maximin], you must surely have seen some once when you were at the farm of Coin with your father.

The owner of the field told your father to go and see his ruined wheat. You went together. You took two or three ears of wheat into your hands and rubbed them, and they fell to dust.

Then you continued home. When you were still half and hour's distance from Corps, your father gave you a piece of bread and said to you: "Here, my child, eat some bread this year at least; I don't know who will eat any next year, if the wheat goes on like that."

Confronted with such precise details, Maximin eagerly replied, "Oh yes, Madam, I remember now; just at this moment I did not remember."

Then the Lady, again speaking French as the beginning of her discourse and when giving the secrets, said to them:

Well, my children, you will make this known to all my people.