Thursday, July 14, 2005

Science and Church

A classic example of the limits of science, and an example of a conflict between the Church and science is the idea of geocentrism.
The Church has taught that the earth does not move, and the sun and stars move around it. The ancient Greeks proposed a heliocentric theory, which the early Church Fathers contested based on Scriptural interpretation.

Centuries later, Corpenicus proposed a heliocentric theory, which he felt would simplify the cosmology of Ptolemy. He sold it to a Pope as a more efficient way to describe the motions of planets as part of a program to improve the calendar. In fact, Corpenicus' heliocentric model required 48 epicycles (including "epicyclets") to Ptolemies 40 to gain the same accuracy! [Kepler's elliptical orbits simplified things, but still was not more accurate than Ptolemy's model until modern times when Fourier Transforms (a fancy form of many, many, epicycles, effectively) were applied to curve fit observed deviations of planetary motion from the ideal Keplerian motion.)]

Galileo picked up Corpenicus' model and proclaimed basically that Scripture was wrong, the earth orbited the sun, and the sun was the center of the universe. Three Popes ended up condeming the writings of Corpenicus and Galileo. If the Corpenicus' writings and Galileo treated their theories as a theory, and not as proven reality, the Church would have stayed out of it. Finally, after the editors of Corpenicus' works removed the few sentences that proclaimed heliocentrism to be more than a theory from his works (as demanded in the inquisition), the works were removed from the index. The proclamations were never rescinded.

Today, heliocentrism is rejected, as is geocentrism, all in favor of acentrism. No one knows if there is a center to the universe, scientifically. Equally factual, No one has proven to date that the earth rotates or translates! I.e., geocentrism has by no means been disproven. Acentrism is more philosophical than scientific. The theory of General Relativity operates under the assertion that one can pick any center to describe the universe. A postulate of the theory is that there are no preferred reference frames (i.e., any center will do). This is how General Relativity is formulated.

All observation we make in the universe is of relative motion. We see the sun and stars rotating around us, but mathematically, equally probable is that the earth turns (the current OPINION). Foucalt's pendulum, Sagnac effect, light gyroscopes, etc. can detect rotation, but cannot distinguish between rotation of the earth and rotation of the universe.
The interesting predicament is that though science strongly disagrees with geocentrism, it has not been able to disprove it.

Some interesting quotes:

Cosmologist George Ellis in Scientific American:

"People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations," Ellis argues. "For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations." Ellis has published a paper on this. "You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that."

As stated by Max Born in his famous book,"Einstein's Theory of Relativity",Dover Publications,1962, pgs 344 & 345:

:"...Thus we may return to Ptolemy's point of view of a 'motionless earth'...One has to show that the transformed metric can be regarded as produced according to Einstein's field equations, by distant rotating masses. This has been done by Thirring. He calculated a field due to a rotating, hollow, thick-walled sphere and proved that inside the cavity it behaved as though there were centrifugal and other inertial forces usually attributed to absolute space.

Thus from Einstein's point of view, Ptolemy and Corpenicus are equally right."

22 Comments:

Blogger Charlie said...

If you are ever interested in doing apologetic work or evangelism, do the Church a favor and leave Geocentrism out of it.

Wednesday, July 27, 2005  
Blogger Patrick Shea said...

Hey Mark, I do believe Catholic Online is a phony site run by protestants. Isn't it obvious? Seriously, you're an engineer, figure it out.

Friday, October 07, 2005  
Blogger Patrick Shea said...

Hey Demetrios, if you want to do yourself and the church a favor, open your eyes and mind.

Saturday, October 08, 2005  
Blogger Patrick Shea said...

Mark, I've tried posting "Science and Church" topics on a lot of *Catholic Web Forums* and keep getting booted off. Seriously, there are either a lot of ignorant, controlling priests running the forums or they are truly not "Catholic Forums". I can only conclude they are run by protestant pigs that allow only ignorant Catholics to post their nonsense and censor out the facts of the Catholic Church.

Saturday, October 08, 2005  
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Anonymous John said...

Many people say that The Earth moves around itself in 24 hours. Circumference of The Earth is around 40 000 km ( on the equator).
So velocity of any point on The Earth's equator is cca 40 000 km/24 h, that is, around 1667 km/h(!) or 463 m/s(!).

Does the above velocity of The Earth make sense?
Ask yourself dear reader: can anyone stand still or walk on a running belt moving at speed of almost 500 m/s?!
Wouldn't everyone very well notice his standing or walking on a running belt moving at speed of 5 m/s, let alone 500 m/s or almost 1700 km/h (cca 5 times faster than the fastest racing car on The Earth)?! No one would be able even to stand let alone walk at such a speed.
The Earth is well approximated to a running belt because it looks plain due to its huge radius in comparison to man.

It is unbelievable how anyone with use of the reason could not understand such a simple proof against rotation of The Earth, believe in such a nonsense as the alleged rotation of The Earth is and consider himself rational. This claim that The Earth moves around itself, this is not a science, this is an unbelievably audacious and insane lie, false ideology and false religion.

No experiment can prove such a lie. Thus if they are interpreted as proofs that The Earth moves their interpretation is obviously false.

Thus what The Church, The Scripture, popes and Church Fathers has always taught turns out to be the truth and science. Also turns out that there is no conflict between The Church and science but only between The Church and false science (no science) and between science and false science (no science).

Sunday, November 22, 2009  
Anonymous John said...

The argument above is flawed: in the case of ideal motion with constant speed there is no force no matter how big the speed is.

But since God and The Church cannot err there must be some true argument against rotation of The Earth around itself. Here it is: galileo-rout.blogspot.com.

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Anonymous John said...

The text above says: “The ancient Greeks proposed a heliocentric theory, which the early Church Fathers contested based on Scriptural interpretation.”.

That isn't true. Until the recent times (from 16th/17th century onwards) vast majority of scientists and people in general, ancient Greeks included, rejected Heliocentrism as false.

Otherwise we wouldn't hear the men of recent times calling Heliocentrism of Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler, Newton and others who followed them “a revolution in science”.

The Holy Fathers and The Church still had to act because even minority opinion can be harmful for salvation of men and subvert the truth of inerrancy of The Bible.

Note that Heliocentrism isn't a modern scientific discovery as many people wrongly think but an old theory well-known to scientists for more than 2000 years and was still rejected by them until the “revolution in science”.

Obviously, scientists wouldn't dare to reject something without indisputable proof against it.

So what could be the proof that led those scientists (especially astronomers) to reject Heliocentrism for more than 2000 years until the “revolution in science”?

(continued below)

Thursday, April 14, 2011  
Anonymous John said...

The Earth is said to rotate around itself counterclockwise. The Moon orbits around The Earth in the same direction, counterclockwise.

Average velocity of The Moon in its orbit around The Earth is around 1022 m/s and due to it The Moon orbits The Earth in 27.3 days.

Velocity of supposed rotation of The Earth around itself at the equator must be approximately 463 m/s (approximately 40 000 km in 24 hours);

It is obvious that in case The Earth rotates around itself everyone at the equator* would see and measure almost 50% slower orbit of The Moon around The Earth than it is (average velocity of 559 m/s (1022 m/s - 463 m/s) instead of 1022 m/s).

Which would necessarily give almost twice longer period of The Moon's orbit around The Earth to be expected i.e. 49.9 days or more than 3 weeks(!) longer period than it is.

* - on different geographical latitudes (bigger and smaller parallel circles around The Earth) there would necessarily be different velocities due to The Earth's rotation around itself;
thus there would necessarily be seen and measured different visible average velocities of The Moon's orbit around The Earth and necessarily calculated different values(!) for expected period of The Moon's orbit around The Earth for different geographical latitudes


However, after 27.3 days everyone would see that The Moon has made full circle in the sky and around The Earth so that the calculation according to visible orbit of The Moon around The Earth is mathematically correct but doesn't correspond to the real orbit of The Moon around The Earth.

That would be a clear proof that The Earth rotates around itself. But nothing like that happens in reality: the expected period of The Moon's orbit around The Earth is equal to the real period and it is equal on all geographical latitudes.

(continued below)

Thursday, April 14, 2011  
Anonymous John said...

Thus (see above) it is proved that there is no rotation of The Earth around itself.

From this necessarily follows that then The Sun must orbit The Earth (please note that this is exactly what we see and thus is not an illusion (as we are told)!) as Geocentrism says.

And from this necessarily follows that The Earth doesn't orbit The Sun but is absolutely stationary.

Since all modern theories (heliocentrism, the center of mass (barycenter) i.e. acentrism etc.) are based on rotation of The Earth around itself (and around The Sun) it is clear that they are all resoundingly false, successful coordinate transformations notwithstanding.

No wonder that seeing something like the proof above virtually all scientists before 17th century rejected Heliocentrism.

How come that this proof hasn't been seen from 17th century onwards? Because from Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler and Newton on vast majority of men dealing with science are no scientists but revolutionaries and rebels at war with the truth and with science.

If there is an error in the above argument regarding The Moon's orbit around The Earth it must be demonstrable.

If anyone demonstrates it here then the argument proves nothing and I will apologize.

If no one demonstrates it here then Heliocentrism, Acentrism (the center of mass, Barycenter) etc. are all proven wrong and Geocentrism is proven right and those who support Heliocentrism have to apologize for insults (if committed them) towards all those who support Geocentrism.

Wednesday, May 04, 2011  
Anonymous John said...

The argument against rotation of The Earth around itself is flawed.

I am in search for the proof explaining why "The geocentric model was nearly universally accepted until 1543" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_revolution#New_ideas) i.e. why for more than 2 000 years(!!) nearly all scientists rejected Heliocentrism.

Tuesday, July 19, 2011  
Anonymous John said...

Now you can see on galileo-rout.blogspot.com why Heliocentric construction of Copernicus, Galileo, Kepler and their followers is logically untenable and thus necessarily unreasonable and unscientific.

That could easily be the reason I was searching for why nearly all scientists (astronomers before all) before 16th, 17th century AD rejected Heliocentrism as certain falsity.

Sunday, October 16, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Really !? The size and mass of the sun and planets have been determined long ago. The earth is one of the smaller planets and you want to say the massive SUN revolves around it !? We woul have been ripped to shreds long ago ! LOL

Wednesday, September 18, 2013  

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